Ukraine’s president fears that America is keeping him in the dark about talks with Russia 

Feb 12th: Volodymyr zelensky, Ukraine’s man of action, doesn’t take to limbo easily. His five and a half years as president have been a series of brutal tests. But the waiting game is the most palpably frustrating. Three weeks after Donald Trump took office, the Ukrainian president still doesn’t know what his plans are for Ukraine. Mr Zelensky reveals only minimal contact with the new leader of the free world: just “a couple of calls” since a meeting in September. He says he is “sure” Mr Trump has no oven-ready peace plan. How could there be when no one has been consulting Ukraine about it? He is not being informed about contacts between the White House and the Kremlin; what he knows he gets from the press like everyone else. There are “probably” some ideas that he should know about, but he’s yet to be told about them. “We haven’t seen them, and we haven’t heard any proposals.” The fear for Ukraine is that a deal between Mr Trump and Vladimir Putin could be done over his head.

President Zelensky is in an oddly upbeat mood during an hour-long conversation in his presidential compound in Kyiv. His face is tired, but he has been keeping fit, the calloused palms of his hands testifying to the 7am gym sessions he squeezes in after sleepless nights of military reports and explosions. He even occasionally laughs, subduing the angrier edges of his personality, in what appears to be a communications push ahead of the Munich Security Conference that starts on February 14th. This conference could be the Trump team’s signal to snap into action, he suggests. “There will be two large delegations [America’s and Ukraine’s], there will be meetings.” Yet the mood music is ominous. Just a few hours after this interview, the American president declared on social media that there is “little to show” for support of Ukraine. “This war MUST and WILL end soon,” he wrote. Mr Zelensky confirms he will sit down in Munich with Mr Trump’s deputy, J.D. Vance, a man who once claimed to “not care what happens to Ukraine one way or another”.

Ukraine’s president spoke to The Economist on February 11th in Kyiv. This transcript has been lightly edited for clarity.

The Economist: So, we meet here on the eve of the Munich Security Conference, which opens on Friday. The American Vice-President J.D. Vance, and Special Representative Keith Kellogg will be there. What are you hoping to achieve there?

Volodymyr Zelensky: We have many different issues. First of all, we have ongoing work; this is our dialogue with the new usadministration. This is very important for us. Day by day, almost every day, we will have discussions with representatives of President Trump, his administration, his close associates, and his people who have the relevant authority. Tomorrow I have a meeting, there will be a team of financiers from the us, and this is very important for us. Then, you know that on the 20th, after the Munich Conference, there will be his special envoy on the war, Mr Kellogg.

I will have a meeting during the Munich Conference with the vice-president. I think Rubio and Kellogg will probably be there. There will be two large delegations, there will be meetings. We need to have a very substantive discussion about security guarantees for Ukraine.

I am glad that President Trump’s team wants to end the war. In my personal opinion, we need to move from these possibilities, and there are such in America, to practical actions. And to do this, we need to not only communicate but also develop a plan of action. And what I expect is another meeting.

I had a meeting with President Trump, we only started talking then. Now there will be the vice-president and his team. And I also expect a number of meetings during the Munich Conference with other partners. If you asked me not only about the American side, as far as I understand, or only about the American team?

TE: I was focusing on the us context. I was wondering if you could also talk a little bit about how deep those contacts have been, how often do you talk to Mr Trump and his team, and whether you know anything about how often Mr Trump is talking to Mr Putin, for example? Do they keep you up to date with that?

VZ: I don’t know who President Trump is talking to. We get this, like you, like everyone else, from the public domain. That’s the first thing. The second point is how often we talk. As I said, there are meetings planned.

I can’t add anything else. My team is communicating with President Trump’s team by phone. As for my meetings, you know we had a couple of meetings and a couple of calls. That’s it.

TE: A couple of calls afterwards. That’s what it comes down to?

VZ: We had a meeting in September, and there were a couple of calls after that. So all my calls, all my conversations with Trump are public. I haven’t had any meetings or calls behind the scenes. I’d like to understand what you want, to be honest. I’m a very simple and straightforward person. You don’t have to mince words with me; you can just ask questions and I’ll answer them.

TE: Do you have an idea of this us plan? Do you think there is one?

VZ: I’m sure there isn’t a ready plan yet. Why? Because a plan can’t be purely American. Because the war is happening here. And without our joint work, without consulting us, I think it can’t be complete. President Trump’s team probably has some developments. I’m sure they do, because it’s a very important issue for them.

And we haven’t seen those developments yet. We haven’t seen them, and we haven’t heard any proposals. That’s it. I think February will be the month when this work begins. I think President Trump is dealing with domestic issues in the United States, and I think that’s his priority. At least, that’s what we see in the public domain, and I don’t have any other information.

TE: The reason I was asking you about these different contacts is that there is an obvious sense that Mr Putin is trying to exclude Ukraine from negotiations. I think we can see that. Do you think he is manipulating Mr Trump and is he having any success in his effort?

VZ: I’m just not sure that Putin has some number of conversations with Trump. I’m not sure that this is happening. Their teams are probably in contact. But for me, you know why the work of Trump’s team differs from the work of the previous administration?

First of all, everyone was contacting the Russians. And there’s more information about this in the media now than there was under the previous administration. So, the American and Russian intelligence services were communicating. Representatives of the administrations, presidents, they definitely communicated.

We know this, it was behind the scenes, away from the public eye, from almost the whole world. But they still communicated. And therefore, if teams are talking about something somewhere, I’m not surprised. Just like our teams communicate in various ways.

They have different messages, etc, they discuss certain things. Well, that’s it. But the question is whether there’s any decision-making. And that’s what we’re talking about when we say that it’s very dangerous if decisions are made about us without Ukraine. Dangerous for everyone: for the world, for Ukrainians, for Europe, and for the usa.

And why? Because Trump, I think, needs to help Ukraine win this. And he wants this. That’s how I understand it. Again, from open sources. And this is how I understand it after our conversations with him. And Putin can’t be trusted. If a plan is developed without Ukraine, who will follow this plan? No one.

And therefore, the result won’t be very good. If the result is impractical and not very good, then this isn’t the end of the war, and this isn’t lasting peace for Ukraine, and our people won’t be happy. If our people aren’t happy, then what is the achievement? What is the peace for? I mean, what’s the point? Just for show, for someone? Putin may want to exclude Ukraine. You’re right there. He always wanted to decide the fate of our country without us. That’s how he did it with many countries. That’s how he did it with Syria, with Chechnya, with Georgia, with Moldova. Always like that, ignoring the interests of the countries where he acted completely illegally.

But in Ukraine, he won’t succeed. We are a large country, we are resisting him, we were able to resist this invasion from the beginning of the war, and we are here. And it is very important that there is no manipulation. If Russia is left alone with America, Putin with Trump, or their teams, they will receive manipulative information from the Russians.

And that’s a fact. You know, I have a lot of evidence of this. I hear, for example, some voices from the usa starting to say: “Oh, it’s a very difficult situation on the battlefield. Ukrainians are losing land, their territory, etc, they are losing. They can’t resist the Russian army, and this needs to end.”

Yes, this needs to end. Yes, we have losses, unfortunately. But the losses are because Putin brought this war. But the losses are many times smaller than those of the Russians. This doesn’t mean that all these people are not important for us, but the losses are many times smaller. Further, there is no serious advancement by the Russians on the battlefield, and that’s why they are involving North Korea, because they don’t have a strong army. They are simply very, very, very numerous. And this is manipulation.

TE: I would like to come back to the battlefield a little bit later. For the time being, let’s stick to the stakes for Ukraine. You mentioned before that there are various manipulations going on in America. Even among Trump’s own team, from Tulsi Gabbard to Elon Musk, J.D. Vance. To quote J.D. Vance’s own words—I understand you have a meeting with him—he doesn’t “really care what happens to Ukraine one way or another”. Do you think he’s changed his view now?

VZ: Honestly, I think that the vice-president of the United States today is focused on domestic issues. I think, in principle, this team is more concerned with the domestic politics of America and Americans than with international politics.

In international politics, Ukraine is a priority; I’m sure of this. We will be able to discuss some things at the meeting, and then I will find out their vision. But I think the most important thing is that they hear our vision. That’s the most important thing. To understand what’s happening here. To understand many things, the details, and the battlefield that you want to discuss later, and the economy, and the appropriation of our lands and resources by the Russian Federation. That’s what’s happening. And that Putin won’t end this war for us. I think no one understands what war is until it comes to your home. I don’t want to scare anyone. It will come. I’m just telling you the facts.

As the world is slowly stopping Putin today, slowly, too slowly, it will come. And that’s a fact. I recently gave an example. I just received it from the Security Service, from two of my intelligence services. I always get it from several sources, then I look, analyse, and I can share information when I see a large number of coincidences.

So a large number of coincidences in the following information: Putin, about whom someone is talking “that he may even want peace” in the world, in Europe, in America. Look, he doesn’t want to end or stop anything. He doesn’t want any peace. The question of “forcing him”—we’ll talk about that. He doesn’t want to. He formed 140,000 additional people this year. He doesn’t want to end the war.

In addition to these 140,000, he’s preparing 150,000 in 2025. An additional 150,000. Ten-plus divisions, I don’t remember exactly, 12-15 divisions will be formed by Putin. This is a fact. We have all the documents that he is forming this. Moreover, his goal is to send them all for training, military training, military exercises to Belarus. And this is a fact. Today this is a fact. Yes, the fact will be when he sends them. But as for all the documents, everything matches that he will send them. This is no different from what was in Ukraine on the eve of this.

TE: 150,000 to Belarus?

VZ: No, not 150,000. Part of these 10-15 divisions. Yes, but a lot. I don’t know. Maybe 100,000 will be going. A lot. He will send there. So, for what? He will tell you that this is training, exercises near the borders of Ukraine, as it was before. But believe me, this is the preparation of a bridgehead for offensive actions.

The question is, no one in America is thinking about this yet. Well, they’re thinking, okay, the Ukrainian president is raising the stakes, wants to say that there may be an offensive. Okay, there was already an offensive against Ukraine. First of all, he will do it with a larger number of troops. Second, who told you that he will go to Ukraine? Who told you that he won’t go to Lithuania? To Poland?

Just you know what? Excuse me, everyone is just thinking. Everyone lives in this paradigm. Yes, we are grateful to Ukraine, which is defending us. And if Ukraine falls, then he will go further, yes, but you should also understand that it may not be so. It may be that while we are still standing, he is preparing a bridgehead for a large number of troops and simply takes this bridgehead and goes in a different direction. He goes to Poland, goes to Lithuania and occupies them. Why doesn’t anyone think that this will happen? And then… sorry.

TE: That’s a stretch. That would be quite a big military undertaking for them to be committed to Ukraine, as well as opening another front to nato. The question is you’ve made similar arguments that essentially if Ukraine falls, nato will be next. People haven’t necessarily listened. I wanted to ask why you think they don’t believe you?

VZ: First of all, I’m sure that people believe. There are just different opinions; some believe it, some doubt it, because we are people, we are living people. And there are different information policies within each country. So there are skeptics and there are non-skeptics. There are adults, and there are very naive people. People are different, and that’s the beauty of this world. So that we aren’t all the same, do you understand? And this has its advantages, but also its disadvantages. Sometimes people, maybe even a large number of people, are very sensitive, they want to think about the good, and it’s right to live like that. And they think, well, somehow it will work out, but it won’t work out with Putin.

And therefore, I emphasise again, all the leaders of Europe and America who think only about domestic politics think, and they are, you know, delusional, right? They are dealing exclusively with their own issues. Until they come to you with weapons. And that’s how it happens. With us, with everyone.

We want to believe in something good. We all need to believe, because we haven’t just gone through this war, we are going through it, we see what is happening. Putin is coming.

TE: Putin thinks he is winning. What do you think?

VZ: I think Putin believes he has a chance to win. I think there are people around him, and he has all the information, but I think without some details, because no one wants to spoil his mood, they’re afraid of him. So he knows the general things, but he doesn’t fully understand all the losses he has. Or he doesn’t quite understand the situation with his soldiers. He understands that the current situation is enough to pressure us on the battlefield. And therefore, the main thing is that support for Ukraine doesn’t grow but decreases. And then that will be enough for a long, long war.

And I’m sure he understands that he can’t occupy us under current conditions. He understands this. And therefore, the involvement of other countries, escalation, you know, how to say, additional information escalation, etc. North Korea, he’s escalating, he’s inviting them, and he doesn’t share information on how many losses there are among North Korean soldiers.

Thousands of people died. You know, after the last attack, by the way, one of their brigades was completely destroyed by us, and there were three brigades of 4,000, something like that. And one was completely destroyed, and their last offensive was a few days ago, three to four days ago. They had an offensive in the Kursk direction, and we had offensive actions in different directions. They are above, and we are below. There were two strikes. And they had losses: deaths and injuries.

There were 230 deaths among those North Koreans in one day. There was their crashing defeat. And we had losses, but what’s important is that they had to evacuate this brigade for restoration two to three days after that. So the brigade was smashed. So he, Putin, doesn’t know these details exactly. They don’t tell him. They say, everything is fine, we’re pressing in Kursk, we’re pressing in the East, etc, but he doesn’t understand the losses. It’s another matter that he probably doesn’t even care how many people died. I’m sure of this.

TE: In your first interview you talked about Putin throwing [people] like logs to the fire and that was a very vivid phrase I remember. But what do you think it will take? The West believes it will become more difficult for Putin to wage war in the way he is doing because of the economy, because of matériel. What do you think it will take for him to make real concessions?

VZ: You know, I recently started talking about this. And I think that in Munich we can talk about this in more detail. Look, today he has an army of combat brigades. He has 220 combat brigades. All brigades, 3,500-5,000. I’m giving you approximate figures of what brigades exist, because ours are very similar. He has 220 brigades. Yes, he lost a lot of career officers, thousands. These are young people, they are learning, training, etc. But there are 220 of them. In Ukraine 110, in Europe 80.

Do you understand what is happening? Without Ukraine, Europe will be occupied. Without the help of the United States, he will gradually eat us, because we are twice as small. And to occupy us, he needs to be three times larger than us. These are the laws of ground warfare. When you attack, you need a ratio of one to three, then you can occupy, capture, defeat. That is, to occupy us, he needs to have not 220 brigades, but he needs 330 brigades. In Europe there are 80. Tomorrow, if he turns around and goes to Europe, he will occupy all of Europe. Europe won’t be able to do anything. Nothing. This is very serious. That is, Ukraine is not just defending itself. Ukraine is holding back 1m Russians. We are holding back 1m troops of the Russian Federation just by fighting them. If tomorrow Putin says, “I’m not going to you anymore, I’ve gone to Europe.” What will Europe do?

We are not in nato, we are not needed by nato. As nato is a very strong alliance without us.

TE: I wanted to talk about nato obviously. Let’s wind back a little bit. Talking about what’s at stake. Secretary of State Rubio has said both sides must make concessions for this war to end. What is your position on potential compromises for Ukraine? What is at this stage non-negotiable for Ukraine?

VZ: Imagine that Hitler wasn’t destroyed or he killed himself, etc. But, in any case, imagine that after everything he did to the Jews and other peoples of the world, after the occupation, after the fascist policy, after all this, everyone said, okay, let’s sit down and look for a compromise. Can you imagine this? And the fact that we are sitting down with the killer, with Putin and his regime, I believe that Ukraine, and not only Ukraine, but America and all of Europe, this is a great compromise that we are ready to negotiate. And we are ready to negotiate, and I said that this is a big compromise, but we are ready to negotiate because we want peace. But today America is not giving us all the strength that it could give, so that we push them out of our territory. America is not giving us this. And Europe today is giving what it can, but this is not enough to destroy the enemy. And that’s what’s happening. And we are together in such a paradigm.

That is, dialogue is a compromise. Because there must be justice, punishment, someone must be held accountable, Putin, his entourage, for all the killings. But everyone says, let’s sit down and talk. Before all these verdicts, let’s talk to these people, if they are people. In my opinion, no. But isn’t this a compromise? This is a compromise. Second. We understand that we will have to talk, but I said that this is a compromise, give us security guarantees. I would very much like to get nato, but America is against it, Germany is against it. And this is also a fact today. Although Germany and Hungary would support it, if America were in favour of it. Well, no one is giving up.

Hungary will do whatever President Trump says. That is, he will say that it is necessary and officially… I’m not talking about people. People, they… society has its own opinion. I’m talking about officials, about politics, about the prime minister. Yes, they have a relationship.

That is, the issue of security guarantees today depends entirely on President Trump. Whether they will be strong or weak. I believe that it is dangerous to sit down at the table with weak security guarantees. And I didn’t just tell you about these thousands of people, about the number of military brigades for nothing. Because if Ukraine is not in nato, it means that Ukraine will build nato on its territory. So we need an army as numerous as the Russians have today. And for all this, we need weapons and money. And we will ask the us for this.

TE: nato in one country?

VZ: Yes. We need an army as large as the one the Russians have. And all this requires weapons and money. And we will ask the United States for this.

TE: And what if it’s not possible? What is your plan B?

VZ: This is plan B.

TE: This is plan B?

VZ: nato? What does nato mean? We do not need any armies in the world. We need our own army, but we have to double it. Double. To be on the same level as the Russian army. What do we need? Money, and for troops, we need military equipment, etc. So, if Europe is ready, it will be prepared for its security. As I said, a comparable number of troops between Russia and the eu is needed for their security. It means only one thing: if we need to double, Europe will help us with financing, and this way, the United States will help us with some specific weapons: missiles, long-distance missiles, and Patriots.

TE: I wanted to ask if there was any movement on the Tomahawks, which were implicitly part of your Victory Plan. Is there any movement in this particular area?

VZ: Our plan included a package of appropriate weapons that Ukraine would use against the aggressor in the event of a new aggression. And it was a package of missiles. The second was our army. This is what I have just told you about. And I have always meant it. If we are not in nato, okay, we will need to increase the army, and then we need the equipment for this army. Resources are the third important point. You know about mineral resources and so on. We are ready to let our partners’ businesses in economically, but we need to protect them, these businesses. And this is the most crucial point.

TE: Sure. Of course. The point about, specifically, missiles and strategic deterrence is that it wasn’t met particularly well by the Biden administration. My question is whether you feel there’s more chance this might be viewed positively in the Trump administration?

VZ: I don’t know. I don’t know. I talked about Tomahawks, sat in the White House, in the Oval Office, and spoke openly about these missiles to President Biden, Sullivan, and the whole team. And I told them. They were looking at me, yes, they were probably shocked then. And I told them, “listen, I’m telling you seriously, I’m interested in the enemy deterrence package. Will we be in nato?” President Biden said no, so I said, “okay, you don’t want us in nato, but you want to protect us so we win.” They said they wanted it very much. I said, “okay. Then what security guarantees do I have? Can I get nuclear weapons back?” No. “Can I be in nato?” No. Then I need a package, a preventive package, a deterrence package. And what is there? I showed them everything that was there. Different missiles. The number of specific missiles that the United States has. I don’t need to force certain partners; I just gave them what the United States has. And I gave the same thing to President Trump later, when he was not yet president, he said yes, he had not yet looked at this plan when we met, and I didn’t have a chance to discuss it after that. So, looking ahead, I didn’t have the opportunity to talk to him about it. But I want to tell you where we are. I have never been stubborn as a mule. I have always been looking for options to guarantee security for our state. And I always, but at least for one option, we had to get a “yes”, the words “yes”, otherwise it all looks like a long war in which anyone can be interested, except Ukraine because we are just losing people. That’s why I’m talking about the guarantees. And I want to add one point. Many times, in American society and on television, the question has been raised that America has given Ukraine a lot of things. These are security guarantees, and this is not true. It was support; it is important for us, and we are grateful to Congress, the two parties, and the people. We are very grateful to everyone. I am grateful to everyone, but it was as much as it was. It was not enough to break the Russians, it was not enough to completely push them out of our country, out of our land. And even this preventive package, the missile package that I’m telling you about, I said we won’t use it, we won’t even use it, if you want, we will use it only if Putin doesn’t end the war. Is this unfair? I think it is fair.

TE: Let’s talk about another aspect of the possible security guarantees, which is boots on the ground. There’s been a lot of talk about it, Not a lot of specifics. Do you understand, or have an idea how they might work? Given that Putin, almost certainly, would try to test a peacekeeping force?

VZ: So let it be. I think this is a colossal problem, that everyone wants to end the war but forgets that there is one aggressor. If he wanted to end it, it would end. There is a paradox of the situation. We forget that he acted like Hitler and continues to do so. We forget about this, we forget about the tribunals, we forget about the suffering of people, about the lost lives, etc. Instead of discussing the possibilities of satisfaction, we are talking about some kind of political rehabilitation of Putin. And that’s why I don’t understand when we talk about contingent.

TE: I’m just trying to work out how realistic this boots on the ground proposal is. Because you talk about 200,000, and I know that people in European capitals balk at the idea of 10,000 or 20,000.

VZ: Can I ask you a question? Are Americans asking Putin if they can deploy their troops in Europe? Are European countries asking Putin, what do you think if we learn to fly f-16s? Does Putin allow us to do that? Countries that are on the border with Putin today. Finland asked Putin, “Please tell us, Putin, you don’t mind that we still see ourselves in nato, and not in an alliance with you, some security alliance?” Don’t you think that there are too many conditions for Ukraine and the existence of our state? First, fight alone. Oh, you managed to resist in a few days, you managed to prevent enemies? Okay, we will help you. We will help you, just don’t cross the red line. What are they? Well, Russians can fight and kill you, but you don’t need to. Your shells cannot fly to Russian territory. Why? Well, it’s a war, you know. It’s a war. You’re fighting. And the rules, let’s ask Putin. Are these not too many conditions, what do you think? So, the contingent is a question for Europeans and Americans. If they want, they have to talk to us and say, we see it as a part of the security guarantee and say that we want to help you and we think it will work. Do you think Putin will agree to anything that can somehow strengthen Ukraine? No. And why ask him? To hear no?

TE: I wanted to turn to the east, where the majority of the fighting is going on. It’s no secret the front-line units are short of men. Some units, I’m told, are just 30% full. How close are you to solving this? And do you regret not agreeing with your former top general to the extra 500,000 when he asked for the mobilisation in 2023?

VZ: In 2023. Who doesn’t know about this 500,000?

TE: You mentioned—

VZ: Don’t live in fantasy, please. Don’t live in a fantasy that someone is launching, inventing something, etc. The biggest mobilisation…

TE: I think you referred to it in a press conference, that your—

VZ: As I said in those conferences, I said I don’t know who is raising up these 500,000, some military guys, military guys from Ukraine, from Europe, from the United States, a lot of advisers. If you’re a good adviser, you come to the front line and fight. I think so. There’s too much in the media about how to fight, how many people we have to mobilise, etc. So the biggest mobilisation was last year, 30,000 per month. It was, I think, a lot. Yes, it was a question from military guys, from generals, what they did, what Ukraine mobilised—30,000 per month. Russia mobilises 45,000 per month. And it’s real the picture, and the army 1.5, 1.9, as I said, about two times more than we, mostly.

TE: Not all of them are involved in Ukraine, but quite a lot.

VZ: A lot, yes, a lot of people. And they have the same problems. In some directions where we have complications, for example, 60% or 50% or 70% in the brigade, yes, they have the same. They have the same problems, the same questions, the same challenges.

TE: But they have men on the front line, where it matters, much quicker than you have. They arrive and… well you have a different problem. You have a problem with democratic constraints, and that’s a different—

VZ: The difference is that if the guys aren’t going straight, they kill them. That’s why they have problems on the front lines; that’s why their guys are going straight forward. Because otherwise, they kill them. And we don’t know the real number of people, how many people they killed themselves, their soldiers. We don’t know this number. We know only the number of whom we killed or wounded on the battlefield. That is, no one really knows. Because they have a mobilisation of 45,000, it is more than our people. Yes, they have more supplies in some brigades. But you have not been to these brigades, to the Russian brigades, have you? Well, there is a lack of equipment, there are big problems, people do not want to go there, they are all in shock, they are running, they are forced to shoot, threatened. You have to understand that their situation is not better. This is disinformation, it is important.

TE: But everything is relative, in this war particularly. And in terms of Ukraine…

VZ: If they lose… if they mobilise, for example, half a time more than we do, and they lose twice times more than we do, then you have to understand that they have the same challenges. They have a not-great situation. North Koreans are not accidental. It’s not just geopolitics to drag another country in. Yes, they are pursuing it, but that’s not the main thing. Putin will show you that this is geopolitics, that he has allies, that he has Iran. Now, there is North Korea; somewhere, he is negotiating something with China, but he has a problem with the equipment of his brigades. And they are big, whether he knows it, or he recognises it, or he does not recognise it. I don’t care, to be honest. We see it, and we know it. He has a problem with people. He is pulling North Koreans… Well, they are not people for him; they are meat. It is also clear because they throw them on the battlefield. That is, the challenges, believe me, are similar. There are simply more of them. In general, this army is larger, as I told you, with 220 fighting brigades vs. 110 brigades.

TE: You said the challenges are similar. So I wanted to ask the question to you: Do you feel you always get the truth yourself? Because some commanders tell me they think that you’re shielded sometimes from bad news. Have you ever felt that? And do you think there’s any truth in that? Is there a culture of hiding bad news in the Ukrainian army?

VZ: If some commander tells you that I know not everything, then there are big questions for these commanders. You know, they don’t tell their president everything. Everything is very simple. The culture is very simple. I have General Staff meetings. I have several programs—I will not name them—which are used by our military command, military commanders, etc., where we see where the enemy can go, where he came from, where he was destroyed, etc. It’s not the Middle Ages; we know what happens. We have problems. People are very different. There are people who are very patriotic, and there are people who are not. And this is how it always happens in the whole world and how it happens during the war in all the armies of the world. I don’t think we are special or exceptional.

TE: Is there a collapse in morale?

VZ: People are getting tired. This mood is going on in waves. A long war, of course. Energy is dying out. People… this is life. And do you think that the Russians haven’t got the same challenges? Do you think that they are on the rise and the Ukrainians are not? It doesn’t happen that way. It doesn’t exist that way. I think they have very serious challenges. They are simply being killed if they do not listen to them [high command]. That is, it was the same thing in the Soviet Union during the second world war and all other wars that Russia waged against others illegally on other territories of other continents. We will never do that. Never. Because otherwise, what are we fighting for? It’s just impossible. That’s all. And we don’t have such strict laws as Russia does. And regardless of martial law, our policy is much softer, no matter what.

TE: I can’t imagine the pressure you have been under these last three years. Do you still wake up every morning wanting to be president? I mean, the drive you have is obvious. Is the hunger still there?

VZ: Do you think I’m waking up hungry for something?

TE: I’m asking you the question.

VZ: I just live in a different way. I don’t wake up at 8 am I start waking up around 1 am. I wake up at 1am and write and talk to the Commander-in-Chief or the Commander of the Air Force. Then I wake up at 2am, then I can wake up at 4am, at 8am, etc. Sometimes, between 7am and 8am, I still train [go to the gym]; I want to do something to be adequate. I don’t quite understand what you mean when saying I’m waking up to something.

I would say that these three years, our people, and of course because of the missile attack, are not better off than me, but everyone who lives here, who lives here, and who is under the shell and missiles, they haven’t just woken up in the morning. They wake up when there is an air-raid alert, have their own challenges, and are certainly strong people who live for themselves. About the presidency. Look, I will not let Putin win. This is what I live by. And certainly, like our armies, there are consequences of a long war. But the difference between me and Putin is that I am right. I protect my people and my family, and we fight for survival. I don’t have any disease related to power. I love life and freedom. That’s why I fight for freedom. And I have time, he doesn’t. He will definitely die soon. But I still want to live, to walk. I’m interested in traveling around the world after politics. And he isn’t.

TE: There have been many reports about preparations for elections. I understand while the war is going on, martial law means this is impossible. But General Kellogg thinks they’re a must. You’re a politician, a very good politician. You’ve obviously been thinking ahead. So, would you want a second term, or could peace be a final act for you?

VZ: It’s interesting when General Kellogg thinks about the elections. He’s 82 [in fact, 80] years old, and he thinks about the elections in Ukraine. It’s interesting. I honestly think that we will all think about the elections when we can all think about them. It’s definitely not the focus of today. Not because someone is for or against it. It’s not about that. It’s like you don’t have dinner in the morning. You need to have breakfast, work, and then after work, come home, relax with your beloved wife and have dinner. We can’t have dinner, because we need to live until the evening. Just live. This is our whole way. We need to stop the war, put an end to it, and bring back a safe life for our people. And then the elections.

You ask me questions as, certainly, a fair politician. Because, in your opinion, they all want to be in power and live and hold on to it. Listen, I live in a different way. I thought it was important and necessary that I could help the country, help people, myself, and my family. I went into politics. I had dreams and wishes. I wanted to bring something, I wanted to thank the fact that the country gave me. I had a lot of emotions. They were different, it was a difficult job. And no one could even predict that half of my term would be covid, and the other half would be war. But I love Ukraine. And I do it because I love Ukraine. And that’s it. And why do you need all this if you don’t have such chemistry when people respect, support, and love you? I think this is the most important signal that an adequate politician should use. Going somewhere or not going is a question of whether they want to see you there or not. And whether you want it or not. That is, your desire and the people’s desire, your desire and your own society should match. When you match, you can do something good. But if you don’t, you go to war. With whom? With people who live with you in the same country? You don’t match, you won’t build anything. It’s about different things.

Putin did it differently. He doesn’t care what people think. He was able to put them in an isolated information space so that people wouldn’t understand what was happening. And he enjoys the power itself. And for me, a very important result is what we can do together. If someone has no desire, then it is understandable. And that’s why I don’t focus on this topic. I think that today is not the time because everyone is against it. We will not do anything good from this. In addition to the fact that this is illegal, out of the law, out of possibility. How will people vote? Listen, everyone says, how will people vote in the occupied territories? Let’s start with a simple question. How will people vote in Kharkiv? It’s just that the city of Kharkiv lives every day, today, under guided air bombs, under shelling, missiles, etc. On the first day of voting, for example, people went to vote. That is, they just went, and a missile flew there. Just like that flew to schools. By the way, we had elections [polling stations] in schools earlier [before the war]. There were different places, public housing, and so on. And if a missile flew there during the election. What will be the reaction of everyone? What will they say in Ukraine? Everyone in Ukraine will say, we will not go, and we will not vote for anything, and why were all these elections needed, and who invented them, and everyone who invented them, these are all enemies of Ukraine, and people have died here, and so on.

TE: I think the focus is in a ceasefire situation.

VZ: There will be no ceasefire just for the sake of a ceasefire. A ceasefire can be part of the end of the hot phase of a war. And then you need to understand what the security guarantees are. Without a security guarantee, a ceasefire just so that Putin can come in two months. No, it is impossible. And so, the hot stage of the war will end. If it ends, then martial law will end, probably. I don’t know, I guess. Because, look, my point is that if there is no martial law, then the parliament should hold elections. Announce the date etc, and take its legislative steps.

But I have a real question. We raised the issue after the decision of the summit in Switzerland, the peace summit. The issue already looked like a security move. It was not a ceasefire. But the security step was important when the parties said let’s not destroy the energy sector. So, by and large, this is a celestial ceasefire. An air ceasefire. Why? Well, because we agree that we do not fire missiles, drones, etc., we do not fire at the energy sector. Because today, the majority of missile strikes are in the energy sector. There are some of them in cities, in civilian settlements, etc. But the majority are in the energy sector. And we started to respond to them. These oil refineries are absolutely fair [target]. But here was the proposal. Ukraine, America was next to it, and there were another 100 countries, 100 countries. And everyone said, well, Putin can’t not support such an idea, it’s just impossible. Because what’s wrong with it? Americans came to me and said that it’s a red line to shoot at their [Russians] energy objects. And I said, if he did not shoot, we wouldn’t shoot. And they said, yes, maybe. I said, maybe. We held a summit, yes. And everyone just applauded because it was really such a decision. Let’s do it this way. But where is Putin? Putin has gone somewhere. All these stories, all these American voices, European voices, some Arab voices, are gone. Everything disappeared somewhere. They just postponed the steps.

It was the same with the grain corridor, and everyone agreed. Yes, we have a corridor; it is food security, ships go, carrying only agro-industrial products, no metallurgy, etc. They were afraid that we would earn a little on metallurgy. Yes, okay, we agreed. And there was a corridor, and Gutierrez was a guarantor. And then, at some point… it was agreed that it was the same water ceasefire; you can say the same thing but without a security guarantee. Without a security guarantee. There were only guarantees from Turkey, but these are not security guarantees. And here the ships were going, but at some point, Putin realized that we had money, and he could no longer compete in the food market. And then they started shooting at these ships and left. They didn’t like something. We built our own corridor. Our own. And we guaranteed ourselves safety in this corridor. People suffered. But we started to transport millions of tons. And not only grain. Metallurgy, oil products, etc. Here’s what happened. Was it not a ceasefire on the water? It was a ceasefire. Was it not a ceasefire on energy, in the air? It was also a ceasefire. But without a security guarantee, it’s zero. Because he [Putin], from the point of view of the agreement, is also zero. He doesn’t want anything.

TE: I understand from your aides that we have to finish there. But it does seem that the negotiations are going to take a long time.

VZ: You see, my glass of water is empty. We have to finish there.

TE: Thank you so much. I do appreciate your time. ■

Excerpts: The Economist